[00:00:00] Speaker A: Both an art and a science. Valuations are complex things and their impact is enormous, making the difference between generational wealth creation and a comfortable retirement. At Biswile, we know how tough it is to grow and run a business, which is exactly why we've made valuations simpler. Whether you are using our online tool Biswile live, or reaching out to us for a concierge offering where we spend more time on your numbers and your business and give you detailed feedback, you can be sure that the same techniques being used by professional investors are also being used by us. And with Biswell Bootcamp, we will prepare you for those discussions with investors.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Welcome to this episode of the Biswaal podcast. I am really excited to be hosting it. It's always so interesting to chat to people from all around the world, and on this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with John Driscoll. He is the founder and CEO of Naked Development, which is not quite as juicy as it may sound based on the name, but it is a very interesting business all the way out in the US, focused on app development. And John, thank you for making time for doing this.
[00:01:02] Speaker C: Thank you, Ghost. Or is it Mister Ghost or the Ghost?
[00:01:05] Speaker B: You know, it's. We know we won't get into the. We won't get into the pronoun debate too much. We can just go with Ghost. I think that's, that's safer ground, surely. Anyway, hopefully you got some golf in as well. I did notice from your profile that you are quite an avid golfer. You're quite a low handicapper from what you've told me as well. I must say I am a fan of the game myself. I do love that kind of mix of strategy and skill, although you're definitely playing better golf than me. And I'm just curious if you kind of see any of those overlaps between the sport and business. And I also couldn't help but see that the PGA is listed as one of your clients on your website. So that sounds pretty interesting. I'm keen to know more about that and maybe start there.
[00:01:41] Speaker C: Yeah, it was such an interesting situation how that came up. I've been an avid golfer for a long time and my daughter played junior golf and so I spent a lot of time caddying for her as a kid. She's actually getting married now, but when she was younger. And so the PGA reached out at one point quite a few years ago, and it was really to talk to their people at an event, to talk about social media and technology and how they could use technology and social media to leverage, like, leverage that for the PGA of America, which, by the way, there's a big distinction. The PGA Tour is the thing we see on tv all the time. The PGA of America is basically the organization of the PGA that runs all of the pros worldwide. So I was more dealing with them, and so they asked me to come at this event, and actually, Jerry west, the former Laker star, was speaking right before me. And so I got to meet him and got to be on stage and talk to all the PGA pros. It was really interesting, and I talked a lot about how they could really reach the average person to grow the game. And that's a really real challenge for an organization for so many years that's been kind of elitist. And so I think they've made strides since then. It's been quite a few years since we worked together. But, yeah, it's fun as a golfer to be in those ranks, for sure.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: I can believe it was your suggestion that they get Netflix to come and make a great documentary, because goodness knows that works.
[00:03:12] Speaker C: You know, that that has been a great thing for them. I actually think that's such a good example of allowing the world to come in and see inside of your business and how that plays a part. We've seen that so much in reality television, really, even if it's not real a lot of the times, right. It just shows how much the story of what your organization is and the story of what your company is, is so important in connecting with the people that watch it. And I think that. That there's a great lesson to be learned there.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: A lot of lessons. I think the way Netflix has kind of owned that sports docu series space is just incredible, right? Rather than doing the live sport and fighting over those rights with everyone else, Netflix just went adjacent and said, thanks very much. We'll just make the best sports documentaries you've ever seen, and you can come and watch them right here on Netflix, starting with drive to survive and then just branching out everywhere. It's a great case in strategy, but I think there's a lot of marketing lessons, as you say, from what that's done for the sport. It's storytelling, right? I mean, that's what it is. At the end of the day, and.
[00:04:12] Speaker C: It comes down to it, we are all in love with stories. And whether that be the story of the golfers we watch on a weekly basis, like. Like that Netflix documentary or the story of, wow, wine glasses make wine taste better, even though we know that's not true. But we love that story. And I still buy special wine glasses to make myself feel good. As though that's going to make the wine taste better, even though it has no effect.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, if you're a wine enthusiast, you'll need to come visit me in Cape Town sometime because we have some. Some literally world class wine tourism here and literally world class.
[00:04:47] Speaker C: I need to get over there for sure. That's.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: You do.
[00:04:49] Speaker C: Clearly, that's got to get on my list real quick here.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: Yeah, clearly you need to come visit, but you are a busy man, because when you go on the naked development website, the first thing you see is that claim of being the number one ranked us app development agency. Now that is quite a thing. I'm very keen to understand what is that ranking based on? And then I guess more than that is just how did you get there? That seems like an incredibly competitive space to have built a business in. And yet here you are, and you still managed to find time through all of that to clearly be an involved father, which I think is brilliant and a pretty decent golf handicap yourself. So there's a lot to learn from you here, and I'm just going to open the floor to you to kind of tell the story of the business now, how you got there and what that ranking means.
[00:05:30] Speaker C: Yeah, so, you know, the ranking comes from three major organizations that do the ranking for development companies, and they do that for a lot of different organizations in the tech industry, clutch being probably the most popular of them. And then design, rush and good firms, not as popular as clutch, but they are definitely, you know, coming into their own. And there's various, you know, other ranking organizations. And I think that there's always a debate on who's the best or who's the number one or whatever. But because we are ranked most of the time, 90% of the time, as number one, it seems, you know, fair for us to say, make a claim like that. So how we got there, it was interesting. That was one of our goals was to be number one. And we never, honestly, we thought it was like this pie in the sky kind of thing when we said it out loud. And I remember Jason was my co founder, was the one that really said, we just need to be, like, the best, where everybody knows we're the best. And I was like, man, how do we even get there? You know, like, that sounds like such a crazy thing because we're just, like, making these apps for people.
But as we, you know, really just tried to grow the company based on, you know, user experience and really coming alongside our clients and trying to figure out a way to solve their problems. I think Alex Hermozy's $100 million offers really offers a great answer to this question, which is, we just sat out to solve all the problems of creating startup technology. And I think that got into so many different areas that I don't think I could have planned on. You know, one of them is, like, understanding how to make a small product, how to launch a product, how to market a product, how to get funding for a product. It was just kind of an endless journey that I've been on for about a decade. And I think throughout that, we've been able to do a great job of solving a bunch of problems for people, and I still have many more I'm trying to solve. But I think that, that if you're trying to become number one in anything, I think that's, that has to be your obsession, is how do I understand my user or the person that I'm serving, and then how do I solve almost every problem that they have to, where they have to use me? They're almost forced to.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: That's a really, really nice way to, I guess, just move the conversation forward, because it's been a similar story for Biswell. I mean, the way our business works with valuing companies across the world, the valuation is kind of one part of what a founder may be looking for, but actually they're looking for it for a reason, right? They're either thinking of selling their business or they're thinking of investing in one, or they're thinking of raising money, or they're thinking of merging. It's very rare for you to just wake up in the morning and say, hey, I'd love to know what my business is worth. We do try and encourage more founders to actually do that, you know, and actually get on the scoreboard, figure out where you're at, and then set some targets and say, okay, you know what? How big do I want to be within the next two or three years? Because any kind of exit strategy obviously starts many years in advance. It hasn't been too different for you from the sounds of it, in terms of there's an initial product idea, and that's kind of the hook into these clients to understand more about what they need. And then inevitably, the conversation gets a whole lot broader quite quickly, and then you've got to kind of balance out. What do you actually do? You know, you don't want to do too much and spread yourself too thin because you just end up doing a lot of things quite poorly. But you also don't want to be so specialized that you then leave money on the table and create the risk of becoming redundant, because what you're really good at might not be relevant in five years. I mean, I imagine that was a big balancing act for you throughout this process, for sure.
[00:09:04] Speaker C: Yeah, because I'm so big on not taking your focus off of the thing that you're good at. And so it is very difficult. So sometimes you have to give away a lot of things like that for free, like advice and consulting and things like that because you would find it hard to charge for those things. And if you're not charging for them, then the expectations are much, much lower, and you can just give away this kind of information, and then you link that free thing to the thing that you actually charge people for.
And that thing has to be very structured, and the service of that has to be very structured because you're charging for it. So it's a different expectation. People are very easy on things that you give them for free. They can't really complain about those things. Right. But when you charge them, you better crush that, you know, and that's what concept called a value ladder. And I don't know if you've gotten into that much, but value ladders are really, really critical in creating a business where you go from free to charging to charging big and having long lasting financial relationships with people. That's all about linking those things up. So you help really communicate the value that you're bringing to the table with those relationships. And I think you have to design a company from the very beginning with that in mind.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Again, I think it's been a relatively similar story here, I guess. And that's about just productizing what you do, making it clear what each step offers, and then actually going from there. And getting that hook right in the beginning really is the key. That's the top of the funnel, right? As businesses move through those different products then, and convert clients, and those clients become repeat clients and become clients who use all kinds of different services. You got to get the funnel right. I mean, and that's. That's the marketing. But that goes back to the PGA point, right? I mean, that's exactly what full swing on Netflix is doing for golf right now. It's the absolute top of the funnel, and then everything just drops into the sport from there. It's the same way drive to survive is the top of the funnel for getting more people into Formula one. I've watched Formula one since I was a kid, there was times in my life where I was the only person I knew who watched Formula one. These days, suddenly everyone watches Formula one, and that's Netflix. There's no other reason it's getting the top of the funnel, right?
[00:11:22] Speaker C: It is. It's, you know, people need to start thinking of businesses as funnels. They're essentially. That's what they are. And I think when I hear people not really talking about that, that's a huge concern, that they don't really understand the engagement of the customer and through that long lasting relationship of who they see you as and the story that they're, you know, really following about you and all of that. If you haven't designed that, then it's just happening on its own and you have no control of it, you know? And so I think, yeah, people have to think of, you know, when it, when it really boils down to, you better be designing your funnel from the very beginning and understand, you know, it might take years to really design it out, but you've got to start somewhere and understand where it leads. And, yeah, it just seems like people with their marketing, they just don't look at it that way, and it's a big mistake.
[00:12:18] Speaker B: No, absolutely. And one thing that stands out for your business, or about your business, when I look at your websites, is the way you've actually set up your own marketing. It really does stand out. I mean, firstly, the name naked development is unusual. I'm actually quite keen. I think I'm keen to know the story behind it. Maybe I'll regret asking that question, but I'll ask it anyway. So maybe let's start there. How did that name come about?
[00:12:41] Speaker C: Yeah, so it's interesting. Jason and I were kind of working at another company at the time, and we thought, what would we call it if, I think we had a couple drinks and we're like, hey, what would we call it if we started a new company? What would, you know? And we kind of came down to this philosophy of ours, which is, you know, has to do with creating things. And in creation, we are all. We all come into this world naked. I don't know anybody who's come in with, you know, any kind of clothes on, at least, I've never heard any stories. I'm sure there are some on the Internet, but you come into the world naked, and that's the right amount of clothing. When you're created, it's perfect, right?
That's kind of how we saw it. It was like, we create things and we think they need to come in very minimalist with just the right amount built, essentially, and nothing more. And so there's this Bible verse, naked and unashamed. And it was kind of like, hey, you might be a little embarrassed by your products when you start, but you shouldn't be ashamed. You should be okay with them being small. And, and so we really promoted that philosophy a lot the whole time we've been making products. And so we thought a name that kind of really said that. And, yeah, so it sounds provocative. And if you drive off the 405 freeway in Southern California, you'll see our sign off the freeway that just says naked. And I imagine what people think when they pass that, what's going on in that building. And so I find that really enjoyable for myself. And I think in some sense there was a lot of controversy for us pulled doing this when we started. I would say I pushed extremely hard to do it because there was just so many benefits to having a philosophy like that and then also having a provocative name at the same time. Virgin Airlines leaned into it. I thought that that was really smart, and he intentionally did that.
And, um, I think, you know, people need to have a little bit of guts when they start stuff. And I liked it.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, look, it's not too different to when I decided to call myself the finance ghost for the purposes of writing pretty serious investment content. So, you know, that, by the way, was because I was ghost writing right in the beginning. And I thought, well, you know, maybe there's an opportunity to create this cool brand around this kind of completely anonymous pseudonym, you know, of someone who writes about markets and all of that kind of thing. So I guess it's the value of taking a risky branding approach, and it can work out really well if you get it right. And look, speaking for myself, there's been a lot of luck. I really don't know that there's been any more than that, to be honest. It could have easily gone the other way and you really have leaned into it. I mean, there's a, there's a page on your website called Badass Skills which made me genuinely laugh. I thought that was quite brilliant, actually. So I guess you'll find, like, some of your clients love it and others are not interested, but if they're not interested, they were never really your clients anyway. So actually, who cares? You don't need to appeal to everyone.
[00:15:43] Speaker C: If people are uptight, they're probably not good fit for us anyways because we're going to, we're going to bring an edge to their marketing, we're going to bring an edge to their products and they hire us for that reason, I think, a lot of the time. So when they see those kinds of things and we say badass skills or we say, strip down your idea, and we use lots of language like that, you know, that that's really a good way for us to kind of marry up, that we're probably the right fit for them. But if they don't, if they're, you know, we did have, you know, we've had people say other things. Um, and it's fine. That's totally fine. But, you know, it's funny, we've had churches come to us. They seem to have no problem with it. I. I just find that most people connect to it, and the ones that don't, they can just do whatever they want to do.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting the churches have got their head around what you're doing, because I was approached to actually do something for a school in South Africa, a very traditional catholic school. They had, like, an entrepreneurship thing and they wanted some content for that. And everyone was very keen. You know, it was kind of their teachers that had spearheaded it. A lot of the business teachers in South Africa read what I do, and it was blocked by the nuns. And I'm not joking because you can't have another ghost, right? There's only. There's only one, the Holy Ghost. So. Yes. So anyway, the branding can sometimes shoot you in the foot. I will also never forget someone sending me a letter. So I don't know if you probably haven't seen the logo, but it's a, it's a. It's literally a little purple ghost wearing a kind of green tie off to the side.
[00:17:08] Speaker C: Oh, I saw your logo, for sure.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: There we go. Okay. So at one point, I had someone who sent me an email and said to me, you know, I would like to read what you write, but I'm quite irritated by the color purple. If you're not prepared to change it, I'm going to stop reading what you're writing.
And I thought to myself, it wasn't a joke. This wasn't like, just something silly. It was really a serious request. And I just thought, my goodness, the kind of person sitting behind writing a mail like that and being serious about it, you know, dear Ferrari, I don't like red, and it irritates me that that's your whole brand. Would you mind just repainting your Formula One car and maybe I'll consider one day buying your car anyway.
[00:17:45] Speaker C: But that's that's such a good point, because so many people are so quick to change themselves to try to accommodate everyone. And you'll never, ever be anything if you are doing that. You know, I think when you. You know, if you go out to the universe or, you know, your clients or users or whatever, and you're just trying to be all things to all people, you're never, ever gonna identify with anybody. And so I think that that's such a big mistake when people are so quick to change themselves just to accommodate an investor or whatever it is. You know, I just say no all the time. I have no problem with it. Like, I'm just not interested.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I fully know the feeling. You can't afford to try and be everything to everyone in your business journey, because you'll be nothing to anyone. That's where that ends. That's the only place that ends. I mean, speaking of which, your head of human resources, which, based on your website, is a dog named Bear.
I'm sure he's there somewhere. I'm half surprised we haven't heard him yet on this podcast. That said, my cat hasn't attacked me yet. So the animals are behaving, but it probably says something about the DNA in the organization that you've built as well. I mean, it does generally have this very fun feeling to working there. How big is the organization? How many full time? Because I'm sure you use a lot of outsourced people as well. Business like this?
[00:19:03] Speaker C: Yeah, we're a combo. We've always been very focused mostly on in house staff. We do have, you know, some resources that we use, you know, outside some designers and quality assurance and some stuff like that, that we have teams of people that we work with because we have to scale up and scale down. But for the most part, our development is done here in the US. Anywhere from our staff in Sacramento or here in Southern California or. But mostly California based, I would say about 40, 50 people, California based. And then, yeah, we have some outside resources of about maybe 20 or 30 other outside resources.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: It's a nice size business. It's tough to. It's tough to get the DNA right as a business gets to that size. But it seems like something you've done right.
[00:19:48] Speaker C: It's always a moving target. You know, you're always trying to improve, you know, and in technology, you're never done. You're always just. Things are updating and changing, and you're just constantly, always out there and hoping it's an improvement for things. All I'm trying to do. You know, the problem with working with technology people is they're so married to technology, and as a company, we just don't take that path. Technology people have to realize that a lot of times the thing that they do, the skill or whatever it is that they're offering, is kind of a necessary evil for the outcome. And so they get so married to the process or the thing that they do or their certain skill, and they don't realize that it's not really the benefit. The benefit or the outcome that people are looking for is they're trying to build a business.
They want to build a business that reaches people and solves a human problem. This is about humans. It's not about technology. And so I always see that as just kind of a tool for us to get to the answer. It's not really, I don't care what kind of code we write it in or whatever. It, to me, that's just people getting caught up in the wrong stuff. You know, you need to really be like, hey, we're trying to build a business to solve human problems, whether that problem be dating, you know, people trying to figure out how to do that or how to run their company and how to deliver food or whatever that thing is that we're building. It's, people want the food and they want the relationship. They don't want the technology. That's just the thing that they're using to get there.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a very nice way to look at it, actually. Solving human problems, having dogs in HR, it's all about very much those relationships. Right. But I mean, on a serious note, that it does make a huge amount of sense. I mean, that's all that a business is really ever trying to actually do. The ways to get there just varies. So I can imagine that that that's a good way to get people focused on the right stuff.
[00:21:41] Speaker C: Listen, I love my accountant, but do I want an accountant? God, no. Or do I want a lawyer? Does any, is there anybody who's like, I really want a lawyer? Nobody wants a lawyer. You have to have a lawyer. You have to have an accountant. These are not things that we want, you know? And you have to realize, nobody wants a developer. If they could just push a button and have the technology, they just wouldn't have a developer. So they would prefer not to have one. So you, you have to realize that most of the things that you offer are not really things that people want. They want the guidance, they want the leadership, they want the business. That part they want the other stuff is just like I said, I call them necessary evil businesses. They're not things that people want, you know? People want to play golf?
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.
[00:22:30] Speaker C: I want to go to play golf. So when I go to a golf course, I'm happy to be there, because I really wanted to go.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: Yes. You know, not a grudge purchase.
[00:22:38] Speaker C: No, it's not. Yeah, I'm not upset about it. Uh, so when I buy the golf club, I'm. I'm excited about it.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: And that's the trick, right, is to understand what you're selling. Are you selling a grudge purchase or are you selling something people really want? Because those are two completely different things.
[00:22:51] Speaker C: Actually, very few people are in the business that people really want the thing that they. They sell. Most people are in something that people have to do, and they, you know, insurance agents. Let's. We go on and on. Nobody's excited about, you know, I just got a text from my insurance agent. He's a nice guy, don't get me wrong. I don't hate him, but I wish he. I didn't need him. That would be wonderful.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I know exactly, exactly what you mean. So I think as we, as we. As we move towards the end of the show, there's one other big topic that we need to cover, which is just this concept of funding, and this is something that is quite a passion point for you, and I'm keen to understand what role you play in that. You know, is it funding of the apps that are getting built? Is it funding of businesses? Let's unpack that a little bit more.
[00:23:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So normally in technology, there are certain rounds of funding that are pretty typical. Right. And they're pre seed, seed series a. These are rounds of funding that people do so that they can build the thing in the dream that they have. You know, they're not just building the app, but they're building the company. They're maybe paying themselves so that they can do this business. You know, there. There are lots of things that happen in a round of funding, but there's a lot of mystery around these things. And so what I've tried to do with our clients and people in coaching is to demystify the process for people, because what people don't understand is that most startups have all followed the same path. And so people get in and they go, hey, I have this idea. And then they try to follow just their own path. And that's like trying to figure out golf all by yourself. That's a really terrible thing. Which is why most people are terrible at golf, right? So you, you don't want to do that. You want to follow the path that Uber did, that, Airbnb did that. All these other companies that were successful before you, they followed a path of building something, raising money, building something, raising more money, and they went down that path. And so what I've tried to do is coach people through that process so they know when and how to get funding for their thing. Whether they need it now or later, you're going to need it at some point. Most likely. Very, very few people just fund their project and it just goes into a wonderful world of profitability out of the gate. That's just not that realistic of a, of a path.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: I don't know if you realize how unique that ecosystem actually is that you operate in that sort of tech funding ecosystem. I mean, I can tell you for sure in South Africa, that level of venture capital funding just doesn't really exist. I've spoken to people who will say the same thing about Germany, even the UK to a large extent. That kind of Silicon Valley culture is very, very unique. And I think it's why so many innovative things have come out of that region really is because there's a culture where it's okay to fail and there's a lot of money to, you know, have a go along the way for a lot of other places in the world. If you fail once, you're not getting funded ever again, it's just not going to happen.
[00:26:03] Speaker C: That's interesting you say that, because I think there's a lot of math that says the person that failed once has a better chance of succeeding the second time. I had a meeting with a really, really high name investor out in Vegas one time. I drove all the way out there to go meet with him and he told me a story of funding a company for quite a bit of money. And the guy failed, but he really believed in the guy. And so he took a second round and a second idea with the guy and he gave him more money. So he doubled down on that, no pun intended, with Vegas, but he doubled down on that. And then the guy created peloton and that was that, you know, eventually became Peloton. And you hear stories like that a lot. So failure is a part of startup. It really is. And you can't be afraid to fail. And a lot of people have done it. In fact, right before Instagram was started, those guys, the founders of Instagram, were working on Maroon right before they started Instagram, and they completely just got rid of that project and started Instagram, and that turned out to be a wild success. Right. So it's happened so many times that I think you're right. You have to be, you know, that's why a lot of people will even move out here, right? Because of the culture of really how it is to start things and to have people around you that are willing to help. And there is very much a culture of people that are willing to help, too. For free, not even for money. They'll just do it for free. And you see a lot of that, and it is exciting. And there. Now there are several places around the world that you can do that. But you're right, California is probably still best known for it.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And the way people value businesses there is just completely different to anything else in the world. You know, it's kind of like valuing the person who, they know a little bit about the idea, and then it's very. It is very much rolling the dice to your Vegas point. You know, that is kind of how it is. That's the culture. And I think the reason you can get away with it is because success is enormous. When it goes well, it's Instagram. When it goes well in South Africa. It's an interesting new platform here to a market that is smaller than one of the major states in the US.
It's just the size of the prize is so much smaller, and so people need to take less risk, whereas there, the size of the prize is gigantic. And so people can really have a go because the jackpot is huge. I really think it's in the maths.
[00:28:36] Speaker C: Yeah. So just a question for you. I know you're the podcast ghost. Would you tell me that? Do you think somebody could start a company in South Africa and successfully launch worldwide, though?
[00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I mean, there are examples of that, so you can. But it is just that much more difficult and that much more unusual, you know, for whatever reason. What typically happens down here is you'll get a business that gets big enough that they have a market leading position in South Africa, and then they'll typically expand one, maybe two other countries. It's quite rare. There are examples of businesses that have really become large. So, I mean, I'll just give you one. There's a business called Bitcorp, and basically it's a food service business. They supply the restaurants. So it's the equivalent. I don't know if you know the us company, Cisco, not the tech company, but the us food service company.
[00:29:28] Speaker C: Yeah, the food service company. Yeah. I actually know one of the guys at Cisco. Yeah.
[00:29:31] Speaker B: Okay, so Bitcorp is kind of like Cisco, but for the rest of the world. And it's basically south african incubator, but now literally everywhere. And that's quite a rare global success story. So we do have them, but inevitably, it's also not in the tech space. It's in the more industrial space or service or something else.
[00:29:50] Speaker C: You know, I think this is cultural. I don't think it has anything to do with the location of it. I would just say that any of your listeners that have a good idea, please call me, because I think I could build a major company out of South Africa with no problem.
I don't think it would have anything to do with where it's at. You know, we get calls all over the world, you know, from Europe, the Middle east, everywhere. And there's very much a democratized mindset now of building technology that hasn't really become mainstream. But it's there. It's happening for sure.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Well, there's some encouraging words, so don't make that offer too lightly. You might get spammed on LinkedIn by would be tech entrepreneurs from South Africa, but I suspect that you wouldn't mind that, actually.
[00:30:36] Speaker C: So we get 200 inquiries a month, people trying to work with us, so we're pretty used to it. Yeah.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Well, there we go. John, I think it's been a really, really fun conversation. We've covered everything from golf through to marketing strategies, through to the culture of the business you've built and some badass skills and having dogs in human resources and funding of businesses. And I think some really cool words at the end there about how maybe you don't need to actually be sitting in Silicon Valley to build out something that is a global tech business. So I'm quite happy to end it there, actually, because I think that's been a great podcast, and I really appreciate you taking the time to speak to us. And all jokes aside, people can contact you on LinkedIn. Is that the preferred approach?
[00:31:18] Speaker C: Yeah, LinkedIn. Or go directly to the
[email protected]. dot yeah, brilliant.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: John, thank you so much, and I hope to chat to you again sometime. I've really enjoyed it for sure.
[00:31:27] Speaker C: Me too. Thank you so much.
